Dreams of Yesterday and Tomorrow

Below is an interview with Viktor Pinchuk, who belongs to a galaxy of business persons of the first – most powerful and muddy – wave of the Ukrainian rich. He is an extremely wealthy man who is growing into a prominent and indispensable public figure. Unlike his numerous peers, he does not want to run for Parliament, premiership or presidency. What does Viktor Pinchuk, entrepreneur and patron of the arts, want? This talk is about seeking predestination in a New Country, and about a search for the New Country.

— This must be the first interview that I would like to begin, rather than conclude, by saying “Thank you!” Thank you for the emotional catharsis, for childishly happy mature men, for rapturous girls singing in English. What did you feel in Maidan on June 14, besides “Yes, I did it!”?

— Of course I felt like you say, because it had been my cherished dream. I visualized it as McCartney with his guitar singing “Yesterday” in Maidan. And when he did sing “Yesterday,” I took in every moment, every single sound of it, trying to memorize it for the rest of my life. I did not think of the mission the concert was called to accomplish – epitomized in its slogan “Time to Be Together!” – I was thinking of the great artist.

— A propos being together… Do you believe a man admired by many generations but truly revered by those past their prime is able to unite the nation--part of which likes Russian pop, and another part – Ukrainian folk?

— I believe in the great power of the artist. If the Lord chooses several people, maybe even one person from an entire generation, He bestows upon them the gift of holding sway over human minds and hearts. Such artists can know the future; they can talk to people and be trusted more than any politician alive. What people see and hear will transform into fair feelings, in positive emotions and energy. That is why I try to bring such artists to Ukraine: here is Paul McCartney — get charged and shine.

— Elton John, Paul McCartney… Who comes next?

— I know who comes next, but you’d better ask my wife Olena because it is the projects she is running with her Anti-AIDS Fund. Do you know about the outcomes of Elton John’s concert? On the next day, a meeting was held in the Cabinet of Ministers to discuss the national situation with HIV/AIDS and redouble efforts in this area. Second, my friends told me that after the concert their teenage children asked them to arrange an AIDS blood test for them. Doctors called to the Fund from all regions of Ukraine confirming that the number of people seeking HIV diagnostic services grew manifold. Third, Olena says that, according to the latest surveys, the percent of sexually infected HIV–positive patients has notably reduced over the last year, for the first time in Ukraine’s history. So people have come to realize they need protection, started thinking of safe sex. It is a result, inter alia, of the large-scale Anti-AIDS campaign and Elton John’s forceful emotional appeal. This is how it works: the great artist talks to people, sings to them… and saves thousands of lives.

— What outcome do you expect of Sir Paul’s visit? Was your intention to remind the politicians who went astray how chaste they were at the beginning? They are the primary antipodes of the “Time to Be Together” idea, aren’t they? Besides, there are few people over sixty left in politics…

— McCartney’s message was not targeting powers that be. This concert is a gift to my generation and to people who are a bit younger and a bit older than me. McCartney is chosen, he is one of those via whom the heavens talk to us. He spoke to everyone. Men standing on Mount Sinai a few thousand years ago were also chosen, they were blessed with some superior knowledge. That is why the Ten Commandments still apply today. 45 years ago, The Beatles awoke billions of people throughout the world. Naturally, a lot of new music trends have appeared since but you saw the people’s faces – mainly young ecstatic faces. McCartney’s words of love, peace and freedom were addressed to them: guys, the world is beautiful and it belongs to you; take care of it, do what you should, what is good for the world! I think some of McCartney’s messages will be fully appreciated later. He asked me what language he should use, what language most people speak in Kyiv. We briefly explained the language situation to him, and eventually even his musicians chose to chant: “Diakuyu! Spasibo! Spasibo! Diakuyu!” when addressing the audience.

— And yet he conducted his concert in Ukrainian.

— In English, rather… He consulted about the language in which to address people but the final decision was his. Of course, we told him it is Ukraine but many people speak Russian here, so it would be advisable to use both languages. And the artist was sending his message through the medium he thought would fit best. He even took a Ukrainian lesson, paying close attention to it. He wrote a series of phrases he wanted to be translated for him to convey his ideas effectively.

— Was McCartney content with the concert?

— Was he content?! He was happy. He considers it one of the best concerts in his career. Our UK partners say the media coverage was the largest in the history of the world’s show business: 330 TV channels in all parts of the world broadcast reports of our event. It is important not only to Paul McCartney and his group. It is important to Ukraine as our country was featured positively in the world mass media for two days. Even the torrential rain could not stop the nation. And the world knew we were together, 350 thousand people in Kyiv alone. But for the rain, I am sure, the number of people in and around Maidan would have been half a million or even more.

— Did you lure McCartney with money?

— It is next to impossible to lure Sir Paul with money. The idea of a charity concert appealed to him. We convinced him this non-commercial event would be very important for the nation. He knows how influential The Beatles were with the USSR people…

— You encouraged VIP guests to make donations for purchasing equipment for a pediatric oncology centre. How much money have you managed to raise?

— Last time I enquired, it was about three million hryvniyas. The overall attitude is very positive. Most people were responsive. Some wondered why they should give away money if they are a huge girt to humankind, in and of themselves. Yet those were negligibly few. People of various political allegiances and occupations, public servants and private entrepreneurs contributed to the cause.

— And yet, what remains when the song has been sung? Wings?

— Yes, wings, no doubt… And people’s understanding that they like the same things. I wish this positive energy could translate into something socially significant. However, we lack leaders willing to help it happen. When there is no ideology for uniting, politicians look for a surrogate, for example, ratings. Unfortunately, they are ready to divide the nation for the sake of ratings: if my opponent promotes the Russian language, I will stand for Ukrainian; if he is pro-NATO I will be anti-NATO, etc.

— Our leaders of today are very serious about those matters because they help to attract electorate.

— These are all shallow, minor matters arising for want of a big unifying idea. We Ukrainians, especially of my generation, are lucky. I am sure of it: we have got a unique chance to build the country, practically from scratch, because it had never existed as an independent state. This idea should become an exciting, inspiriting and unifying dream. No country can be built without a grand dream. I think the first ten years of independence were fairly successful because the society, elites and different parts of the country had an opportunity to realize their integral dream, incorporating myriads of smaller ones, and enjoyed it. Some dreamt of becoming independent of Russia, others – of the Kremlin. And both banks of the Dnipro River dreamt of their own country. That was the basis for social consensus. There were leaders capable of channeling this positive energy in a wise way. President Kuchma was one of them. He matched the time and the historical task; he fit naturally into the initial period of building the country. Today, the time is different, and ardor has evaporated. We have built the skeleton of the country but it is not a dream. One cannot build anything productive without a dream. NATO is not a dream; language is not a dream. The foreign policy “vector” is not a dream, either. These are marketing ideas dividing people. We need to continue building the country. Therefore we have to think of an integrating idea for the next generation. This is the key task as I see it.

— As a matter of fact, unlike the Baltic States and other neighbour-countries, which formerly belonged to the Warsaw Treaty and ECC and have already acceded to the EU and NATO, we proved unable to consciously sacrifice something in order to build the country. I think Maidan is the best thing that has happened to us in recent history. It was a noble impulse, without compromise and bribery. Yet it was an uprising of the spirit rather than that of reason. It was a protest but not a creation. People wanted a new government they freely elected but they did not set requirements for it. Perhaps we are not ready to go out to Maidan to demand judicial reform, market prices for oil and gas as a basis for independence, clearly formulated foreign policy, etc.

— That’s right. Yet citizens of Poland and the Baltic States did not face such a dilemma; they had no doubts as to where to go. They identified themselves with Europe and discussions focused only around the pace of integration. In Ukraine, there has been (and, given its history, could be) no such consensus. The most acute problem of today is the lack of leadership. There is no team that can inspire the society with the dream and offer a plan for its realization. There is no leader of whom people can say: “We trust in his/her dream and are ready to suffer, if need be, to get this dream realized.”

— For the nation to be ready to suffer there should be a leader prepared to speak with it frankly. Can you name any leader for whose sake the nation has ever been ready to suffer?

— That’s what I am talking about – about these crazy dreamers.

— No, dreamers do not speak frankly with people…

— Politicians do not because their goal is power. The goal of those whom I mean is realizing the dream, rather than coming to power. Power is just a tool. They have an ambitious dream, action plan, charisma, energy and perception of Ukraine as part of the world, rather than an unkempt farmstead deserted by the daring and talented.

— Not all “small Ukrainians” are prepared to be responsible citizens. A lot of them have been corrupted with promises and sops. The elite have wasted the energy generated by Maidan.

— This energy can be regenerated, in a different manner, perhaps. The question is who and how will channel or use it.

— Do you think of forming “Winter-crop Generation-3”?

— No artificially formed political force can substitute a grand dream.

— How can you offer an integral dream to a country mentally divided into two? One part of it dreams to belong to the nation that sent the first man in the outer space, and this is valid enough a reason for those people to feel accomplished. The other part dreams of their family’s high income and their own self-actualization.

— Different dreams lead to different countries. We need one, uniting dream.

— What do you propose?

— I am waiting for a new generation. If nobody can offer this grand dream today, conditions should be created for the people capable of formulating this dream to appear tomorrow.

— You know, Mr.Pinchuk, I could name a whole bunch of young politicians whose way of thinking and operating is disgusting. I see the “Other” generation as a religion and the only way out. You are quite right – conditions should be created, first and foremost, by leaders with high popularity ratings. However, they do not seem to recognize that we are a wounded nation: our conscience was murdered in the 1920s-1930s; our courage perished in action in the 1940s (be it in the ranks of the Red Army or the People’s Uprising Army); the voice of the nation was sent to prisons and exile in the stagnant times; our intellect was sifted and its lion’s share taken to Moscow. Our genetic pool, no matter how badly injured, produces good shoots from time to time. One should expect an intensive “headhunting” for these bright minds, but it is not the case. Leaders do not seem interested.

— I concur. Our happy future is distant, that is true. Wounds do not heal overnight. I do not know how long it will take for the nation to fully recuperate but in this supersonic world of ours all processes accelerate incredibly. So I pin hopes on the new generation. It will produce new leaders adjusted to this supersonic world. They will not be ideal. They will love money and property; they can lapse into corruption, of course. But they will be the people of their time. There will be no need to persuade them that democracy is better than authoritarianism, that the rule of law is better than no rules. They will be reared not only by their parents but also by world communications, the Internet and the absence of the iron curtain. The world cannot be reduced to election fliers. The world is a computer connected to the Net. The latter will offer values, goals and dreams. So will those who have realized their dreams and attained their goals.

— That is the future, but you and I and millions of our compatriots live here and now. What is the best way for the nation to survive these troubled times?

— At the end of the Soviet period, there was a popular joke reading: “Nobody promised to provide food en route to the bright and happy future.” Speaking seriously, the period of transition is difficult, indeed. However, it creates opportunities for the future. The time is ripe for the advance of civil society, which hinges very little on formal political processes for development. It might not flourish, but it progresses nonetheless.

— Very slowly, I should say. The idea of joining efforts with like-minded citizens or with those having a similar problem or interest so as to gain a common objective is still alien to us. We are more accustomed to resolving our own problems through nepotism.

— It all depends. Young people are more liberated; they receive better education in totally different universities and colleges. They will grow into a new generation of managers. They will have nothing Soviet or post-Soviet about them. They will represent a new culture of management.

— Aren’t you being too idealistic? A very powerful Ukrainian businessman came to believe in young managers with degrees from the best universities of the world. So he fired all old directors and hired new ones. Yet in fact, the new managers responsible for supplying coal from the businessman’s mines to their partner plants started extorting kickbacks for delivering the required coal grade (20 cents per ton). Such nice Harvard graduates with enormous salaries got into an environment enticing them to get an easy and cozy income on the side.

— There are thieves everywhere, amongst Harvard graduates as well. President Kuchma once said that “corruption” is not a Ukrainian word. I try to combat corruption in our system and get extremely upset every time I learn about such cases. Yet Harvard graduates are less prone to stealing and lying. And they will practice integrity as a style of management and public administration.

— Have all large fortunes been made in Ukraine yet? Is the period of primary accumulation of capital over?

— If you mean the fortunes originating from the post-Soviet heritage, them the answer is “yes.” Yet in the next 5-10 years we will witness a radical change: new challenges, new technologies will bring about new capitals that will surpass the existing ones. No schemes, no technologically and morally obsolete plants will be able to compete with them. In fact, the Soviet heritage has not been fully distributed. I think we would make faster headway if it were. When the distribution is completed, the people will comprehend the current situation much clearer and more adequately. They will have a different motivation for coming to power.

— Because everything will have been stolen by then?

— Not really. The state still owns a lot of assets – land, energy, a tempting plant in the south and so forth. Unless the distribution is over, there is no point expecting a proper protection of property rights and respect of law. Hence another saying: “If you cannot run privatization transparently, run it quickly.”

— There is always a chance of re-distribution…

— Today we have a wonderful opportunity to generate capital and profits from intellect, ideas, new technologies, etc. People can earn billions. Yet when society and authorities get focused on redistribution, they go backwards in their development. I understand that the transition from the “it-is-everybody’s” philosophy to the “it-is-private-property” one is hard. The transition was not fair, it is true. Some people proved smarter, luckier and more energetic. That is life. There is no equality in it. What happened, happened the way it happened, and there was no other way for it to happen. Yet it is not the end – it is the beginning because new opportunities are bigger and more accessible.

— Can your philanthropic activities over the last few years be viewed as a means of protecting yourself from the redistribution of property? Is it about your desire to be admitted to the prestigious global club of patrons of art? Or is it a kind of self-imposed tax paid to those who are less “smart, energetic and lucky” than you?

— In different periods and in different degrees, all of the above reasons were at play. Now they have all melted into one major motive: I believe, firmly and sincerely, that I have been lucky and now I have got a chance to participate in the building of the country. I know exactly that politics are not for me, but I am able and willing to provide opportunities and mechanisms for the most important building development. I want to buy a ticket to the future and become part of this historic process. Therefore everything I do is interesting and dear to me. It is an important part of my life, as stimulating and rewarding as business. Politicians value positions and their attributes. To them, power is a fetish; they are hostages of power. I, on the contrary, treasure freedom. I can accelerate the process of nurturing the new generation. I have a vision and goals.

— And I have a problem, Mr. Pinchuk. On the one hand, your programmes are remarkable and useful. Suffice it to mention “The Cradle of Hope” – raising premature babies…

— I am proud of it. Doctors say the programme, our medicines and equipment, enabled them to save 1,400 children’s lives.

— I agree, God bless those doctors and children. Yet my question is about a different thing: on the one hand, you bring in Paul McCartney, Olena Franchuk invites Elton John thus setting high standards of good taste and internationally significant deeds. The choice of the invitees debunks the myth of Ukraine’s parochialism. On the other hand, you buy the most expensive mansion in London, which is a nouveau riche gesture, mauves ton of sorts. To my mind, purchasing the most expensive house and inviting the artists are incompatible things.

— Don’t trust newspapers (I do not mean ZN). This investment did not even hit the top ten (or maybe even twenty) largest investments in London real estate. I’ll give you an example. I spoke to Lakshmi Mittal. The house he bought four years ago at an extravagant price has since grown in value four- or five-fold. London is the most expensive city in the world, and prices for immovable property will continue to rise there, very rapidly. I advise everyone who can afford to invest in real estate to do that in London. It is a destination of new capital from Asia, China, India, Arab countries and Russia. The price of our house has increased by 10—15%. I never intended to “buy the most expensive mansion in London.” We were choosing an investment project, not a place for living. Of all the photos published in the press, only one – picturing the faзade – is of our house; the rest have nothing to do with it. I did not see the featured interiors in my house, I swear.

— Now I feel much better about it. What part of your income goes to charity?

— I haven’t counted.

— Really?!

— In the future, we will be spending most of what we have and earn on charity, I mean, in the mid-term prospects. We will establish funds to be used for public needs. You cannot earn all the money in the world, yet you can use the money you have doing important things. Business for the sake of business is useless. A person should try to achieve his vital goals while he/she is still alive. Of course, we will provide for our children’s secure life. And we do not demand from them or expect them to continue our business. They could not be interested. I will give them enough money for a good education and for starting their careers. Yet Olena and I are not going to make multi-millionaires of them. They have their lives to live. They do not need heaps of fish, and we will arrange for them to have fishing rods. They will also have our genes, our advice and love. Americans coined a term “happy sperm club” to designate persons born with a silver spoon: they are fully provided for but they waste their wealth on expensive gadgets and idle life. Our children will not be like them. We will not allow it because life is happiness of one’s own victories and failures. Why should we deprive our children of happiness?

— How are you going to spend your billions?

— I will spend them on the dream, on building the country. I want to lend a helping hand, together with civil society, to those leaders who will move Ukraine forward.

— Any political projects?

— No. We need to get together. The building of the country requires a concerted effort of intelligent and caring people. I, like many other representatives of business and society, can facilitate the creation of a healthy, enabling environment for the new generation; the worthy leader and his team will decide where to guide them. We need reforms and a leader capable of telling the truth to the public. He should propose: “Elect me just for one term. I promise I will not run for the presidency again, and I will carry out the necessary reform during my tenure.” Of course, the leader, having undertaken responsibility for the success of unpopular reforms, can bear in mind an ally who will replace him in due time and go on with reforms. I am positive that at this juncture we should elect a leader for one term only. If need be, the term can be prolonged to seven years. As matters stand, during his first term the leader thinks of ratings, rather than reforms. Later, having got used to power, he cannot be effective during the second term either. Rating and reforms are mutually exclusive. The existing system forces politicians to be obsessed with ratings, trivial objectives and power.

— Ukrainian society is disappointed. However, I think that leaders with new qualities are not much in demand yet.

— It is necessary to create favorable conditions for new leaders to appear. Outstanding leaders were born and will be born in different countries of the world. Clinton, Thatcher, Kohl, Saakashvili, Kvasnevsky…There is a new hope for Americans – Obama. Mankind is able to generate leaders. And we will be lucky too.

— By the way, about America. In what currency should we keep our money?

— It is necessary to continually invest money as money on its own tends to lose its value.

— I see, it would have been better to ask this question of somebody who is poorer.

— If you talk about savings then, in my opinion, savings should be kept in different currencies to create a balanced currency portfolio. I think that the US dollar will strengthen its position by the end of the year, especially after the elections in the United States.

— Viktor Mykhailovych, you witnessed the process of primary accumulation of the capitals of Ukraine’s richest people. Ukraine’s second generation of businessmen is different from the first generation of businessmen since they didn’t corrupt prime misters or presidents, didn’t distribute leading industrial facilities of the country, didn’t kill competitors, didn’t participate in dealings in which a ton of metal was exchanged for a block of Marlboro or thousands of cubic meters of natural gas were exchanged for galoshes. The businessmen of the first generation, to which you belong, do not necessarily correspond with all of the abovementioned characteristics but do correspond with most of them. They are smart people with steel nerves, able to make quick risky decisions; they are not very much concerned about morality, state or national interests and do not obey the law. It is exactly these people that make political decisions today in our country: Baloha, Kolesnikov, Akhmetov, Tymoshenko, Gubskiy, Kliuyev...

I do not support the idea of re-distribution of property. I speak in favor of amnesty of the shady capitals that has already been conducted de-facto but hasn’t been legalized. National businesses should have been established at least somehow. However, if these people had been interested in defending national interests they wouldn’t have been able to raise their capital. That’s why they shouldn’t be in politics. Do you agree with me? If you agree, then I have a question: they are smart, energetic and capable of doing almost everything; what may they do for our country if they are not in state power?

— I can only discourse on this matter. The generation you talk about was formed in the period of breaking of two epochs. My initial asset was knowledge of the metallurgical industry. I defended my dissertation on this topic and received patents, and then, Gorbachev announced Perestorika…

— Viktor Mykolaiovych, I don’t want to do this but I have to remind you that you were lucky to fall in love with the president’s daughter…

— I hate this question. However, I would like to note that when I met Lena, I already had two pipe plants, the value of which is many billions of dollars today. For some reason, the people you are talking about were very active during the period of primary accumulation of capital. Nevertheless, whatever has been has been. What can you do about it today? Some of those people feel really responsible for everything that is happening in our country; they are eager and are able to serve the country. This is a priority for them. We went through that hard period, a period during which a lot of mistakes were made, but a period that I am proud of – you can’t forget about those enterprises we raised and modernized. Yes, we made mistakes, but we also leaned a lot from those mistakes.

— And what did you learn?

— I am grateful to Ukraine for giving me an opportunity to earn money. That’s why I will pay my debt back to Ukraine. Today, I am able to do a lot for my country! And this is a pleasure and a real drive for me.

— Tymoshenko is also eager to change the country. However, I think that she is not able do this not only because somebody is hampering her, but also because Yuliya Volodymirivna doesn’t have a comprehensive idea of the necessary changes.

— As a representative of our generation, Tymoshenko understands the situation quite well. However, she has chosen politics for some reason. And here, I have only one question: why didn’t she call upon to us to join our efforts for the sake of the country?

— And didn’t she redeem her mistakes by a destroyed business of hers?

— I don’t want to discuss this, although my opinion on this matter is different from yours. I am saying once again: I blame Tymoshenko for not uniting the nation but separating it. There wasn’t even an attempt to unite the nation. And as early as 2000, Yushchenko’s government drew a reparative line – this is an oligarch faction and this is a reformers faction. It turns out that I am not a reformer. By the way, I think that it was exactly in 2000 when the present split of Ukrainian society began.

— I could argue on this matter but I won’t. This is your opinion. Incidentally, you and all your colleagues-businessmen directly or indirectly involved in state power including Kolomoyskiy, Yaroslavskiy, Surkis are experienced and unconquerable men. Why don’t you try to coordinate you efforts by yourself?

— I can’t give you any example of a successful full-scale union of big Ukrainian businessmen in one project. However, during private conversations, we often discuss the possibility of joining efforts to solve the country’s main problems. During our conversations, we usually fully agree with each other, but nothing goes further than just talks. I have to say: today, we are unable to unite our forces in order to solve the most important problems our country and society are faced with.

— I am interested: who will join the efforts first – you or the middle class?

— None of us has managed to do this so far.

— Today, practically all ideological niches are free.

— Yes, I agree. There are electoral fun-clubs instead of real political parties in our country today. However, I don’t participate in discussions of the political projects.

— The question is not about your participation or not participation. You are a representative of big business. Your vision of the country’s further development is different from the vision of the owner of a restaurant or of three drug-stores. Thus, I am interested: whose project will be implemented first: big business’s project or the project of the middle class?

— I will talk about myself – I try to invest in established spheres that are able to generate new leaders. I am not interested in concrete political forces.

— Incidentally, according to your logic, participation in presidential projects is a form of unification. Yushchenko has gathered many big businessmen under the patronage of his daughter.

— I personally accept such forms of cooperation and don't consider them to be critical. If the questions are really important, why don’t we solve them in such way? I have another question connected to this matter: “Why didn't they let me build Mystetskiy Arsenal? What happened with this project afterwards? The budget funds were spent, but the museum wasn't built."

— Is your former partner Didkovskiy working on this project?

— I don’t know who is dealing with it now. The only thing I want is: give me an opportunity to build a museum for Ukraine and the world! I would like to announce through your news-paper: I am ready to invest billions of hryvniya in this project. No, it won’t be a Pinchuk museum. It will be Arsenal – a private museum, one of the best museums in the world, which will be visited by people from around the world; it will be a museum Ukraine will be proud of.

— Are you disappointed with the fact that Mystetskiy Arsenal is being treated unprofessionally and unskillfully or do you want those ten hectares of land?

— Let’s set things straight. Let’s give those ten hectares to those people who really need them, and I want just the building.

— Isn’t it too late? ZN tried to look into this situation and it seems that it is too late...

— Without comprehensive strategy, love and understanding of this museum’s place on the global map of the world’s art, they will come to a dead–end. The museum won’t become great and well-known. And I will create a remarkable museum anyway!

— You are not satisfied with all presidential initiatives you have financed, are you?

— I am trying to be conductive in carrying out of specific tasks. I will be frank: if Tymoshenko initiates social projects like “Let’s love our children” and invites businessmen for this, I will participate. And there will be nothing personal about this. When the president called upon me and asked me to solve the problem connected with multi-children families, I answered yes. Such things can unite. However, I said that I wouldn’t give money to any concrete person. I didn’t support the idea of creating a special fund for this. I agreed to supervise one Western region and one Eastern region. For example, I am ready to solve the problems connected with multi-children families in Dnipropetrovsk and Lviv regions and report on my activities. Here are the families, and here are the houses built for them, and here are the presents for them. I don’t need any funds for this.

— My son is nine years old. He often plays computer games in which the main hero’s life is nothing – it is more important to proceed to the next level. On May 9^th, we showed him a movie about the Great Patriotic war. He cried after that movie. I think that those tears were tears that added to the formation of his personality. We would like to show him a similar movie about the Ukrainian Rebellious Army. However, there are no movies of that kind. On the other hand, our president is building a lyceum in Baturin that requires UAH 200 million from the state budget. This money would have been enough to create a great movie and impress a considerable part of the post-Soviet nation.

— Concerning Baturin, I don’t care about it. I think that it is more important to know about the point to which we are leading, than about the point from which we have started. There are a lot of ways to do this. For instance, a modern arts museum. We need to create it in order to realize ourselves as a part of the world: if you want to promote Ukrainian culture and art then it is necessary to place them in the global context. I believe we will manage to that. And the Kyiv museum will be visited by guests from around the world.

— We should know and love our national culture anyway. However, it should certainly be fitted into the global context. And this is a very hard task to accomplish since out leader lives with his head turned backwards. The thing is that knowledge of the national history should inspire people to master space and invent new nanotechnologies and computer super-programs. I believe that Yushchenko is honestly trying to make Ukrainians love their past. Nevertheless, I think he is not succeeding in this. In other words, Ukrainian pottery is not very inspiring…

— McCartney with a Ukrainian flag in his hand in Maidan is what we should be proud of. This is more inspiring than Ukrainian pottery. There is one constant line of people in our country – a line to our museum; a line of young people wishing to visit exhibitions of Ukrainian, English, Japanese painters. This is great!

— Perhaps you are right. There can be different views on this matter. However, what will you tell your children about the Ukrainian Nationalists Organization and the Ukrainian Rebellious Army?

— It is hard to answer this question. I think that our children should learn about these organizations in school. Nevertheless, if some leader tells me that it is necessary to publish an interesting and honest textbook to let our children know the truth about national heroes and anti-heroes, I will do everything possible to help. And it wouldn’t matter who made this proposition – a leader of opposition or a state political leader.

— Is there a competition between you and Akhmetov in the sphere of patronage of art?

— He often invites me to their socials and events; we invite him, in our turn. The Yelena Franchuk Anti-AIDS Fund is fighting against AIDS. “The Development of Ukraine” Fund is fighting against tuberculosis. Theoretically, we could create a joint global program.

— How about Ihor Kolomoyskiy?

— Once at the Mediterranean Sea shore, we had a conversation about philanthropy with him. I asked: “Do you want to donate money for some interesting project?” He said: “Yes, I do. For something interesting." This conversation took place two years ago, and I don’t know whether he has found something interesting for him.

— Viktor Mykolaiovych, your fund is paying students scholarships…

— You know, USD 100 per month is perhaps an important additional support. However, I think that it is not the money but a chance to be distinguished among the others that is more important. They need victories more than money. One thing is disappointing to me: they don’t believe that anything depends on them. When I met with our scholars I said: “The future of our country depends on you! Make it with your hands!” And they asked: what should we do? I said: “Go into politics, everything is very bad there without you. I repeat: the most talented young people should go into politics!”

— Your slogan is certainly right. However, they will receive ten times higher salaries at your plant than at the state service.

— There should be some crazy young people, crazy – in a good sense of this word. Some will refuse and some will participate in making the dream come true. And we will help with advice and support.

 

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